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Castorboy



Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1798


Location: Castor Bay Auckland NZ

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

No Green Jay there isn't - it confused me at first because I really thought they were going to film the Barke novels.


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Castorboy



Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1798


Location: Castor Bay Auckland NZ

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lunababymoonchild wrote:

Castorboy, I had no idea anybody had written novels about Burns.  I have been to Alloway and on the Burns trail and was only impressed by the bow backed bridge.
Luna

I don't know if you live in Edinburgh Luna but the fourth novel, all 670 pages, is about his 17 months there and is called The Wonder Of All The Gay World. It's even got a map on the inside cover showing Edinburgh streets at the time.


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lunababymoonchild



Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 447


Location: Glasgow, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live in Glasgow, Castorboy but it's not at all far from Ediburgh with which I am sufficiently familiar.

Luna


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Green Jay



Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1605


Location: West Sussex

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was watching the programme on Burns last night, presented by Andrew O'Hagan. Well, I was half watching and half doing something else. I wish I'd paid it more attention because while I could appreciate what O'Hagan was saying about Burns' ideas about freedom, brotherhood of man, and cutting through hypocrisy, etc the celebration of his fine feelings did seem quite a masculine viewpoint on these things. Burns might have felt trapped by poverty and small-town horizons but I couldn't help feeling all the lovely lassies he left trapped by the same and his numerous illegitimate babbies were in a much worse situation. But Burns was the romantic hero and there didn't seem to be any criticism of him. But maybe I'm doing the programme a disservice because I was busy on my homework at the same time!


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lunababymoonchild



Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 447


Location: Glasgow, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw that too Green Jay and it did seem to be male oriented.  Then again, Scottish society was male oriented in the 1700's.  There does seem to be no criticism of him for how he behaved regarding the lassies, I have to say, but then he died young and wrote much so perhaps that's why.

Luna


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Green Jay



Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1605


Location: West Sussex

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, good, Luna, I'm glad you felt that too, and it wasn't just my bitter 'n twisted 20th (shld says 21st) century feminist feelings surfacing unwarranted.

Scottish society, indeed all society, in 17thC was male oriented, but Andrew O'Hagan was talking now. I felt it fitted a bit too neatly into the image of the male artist who is allowed to go skittering through his personal life leaving fall-out on all sides - is indeed admired for it -  being above criticism if he produces Art. I am talking from a position of almost complete ignorance about Burns  Embarassed - and I was quite taken with his leftist leanings - but the few things I have heard about him always seem to come with a bit of a smirk about what a lad he was, all those swooning girls and his numerous babies avowing to his Scotstatsic testosterone levels.

The programme mentioned he and Jean Armour being brought up before the church for immoral behaviour when she'd had one of his children, and he did go on about her being the love of his life, and he returned and had more kids and married her - but why didn't he marry her first of all? How was it for her to be left behind in their small community? A O'H didn't seem to care to comment - or if he did, I'm sorry, I missed it - I was head-down in my essay.  All this stuff about Burns not wanting to be constrained, understandable in a free spirit, but his hatred of hypocrisy didn't seem to embrace (no pun intended) his romantic partners. It seemed to be about money at times: he was too poor to marry, but how could an unmarried mother support herself and not be worse off, financially, morally, socially? Not covered. I guess that's another programme entirely and doesn't fit with a 'Celebration' of Burns.


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lunababymoonchild



Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 447


Location: Glasgow, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair to Andrew O'Hagan that particular programme was one of a series of three (I think) so he wouldn't cover the entirety of Burns life in the one episode.  

But you are right, Burns attitude to women and the fathering of children, legitimate or not is dealt with with a snigger and a 'boys will be boys' kind of attitude.  Then again he did write of his experiences so it is connected somewhat to his art - My Love is Like a Red, Red, Rose, for instance - but hardly connected to paying the bills or leaving a 'lassie' stranded.  I don't think that the women involved were entirely innocent victims, though and then, as now, prepared to take risks to be near someone like him.

As for what happened to Jean Armour Wiki states it thus : Jean Armour   The last paragraph of which tells a little of what became of her after his death.

Luna


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Green Jay



Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1605


Location: West Sussex

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that info, Luna. How fascinating. And I take it all back, well, some of it. I didn't realise that the programme was just one of three parts. Shows I wasn't paying attention.

I know in English rural communities working class couples were often not married until a baby was on the way, and that was seen as OK. And that in those times sex = babies, so dalliances were never without strings, at least for the women, which is why they were always more constrained than the men, even though it's the latter who tended to take on the mantle of feeling "trapped". Oh, here I go again. Fascinating that Jean Armour had two sets of twins. Poor woman, what a thing, in those days.

Well, I know a lot more about Robert Burns now than I did a few days ago.


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Castorboy



Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1798


Location: Castor Bay Auckland NZ

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Green Jay wrote:
Oh, good, Luna, I'm glad you felt that too, and it wasn't just my bitter 'n twisted 20th (shld says 21st) century feminist feelings surfacing unwarranted.

Scottish society, indeed all society, in 17thC was male oriented, but Andrew O'Hagan was talking now. I felt it fitted a bit too neatly into the image of the male artist who is allowed to go skittering through his personal life leaving fall-out on all sides - is indeed admired for it -  being above criticism if he produces Art. I am talking from a position of financially, morally, socially? Not covered. I guess that's another programme entirely and doesn't fit with a 'Celebration' of Burns.

As a father of three girls I agree with your comments but artists of all types have always been allowed such social freedom. I don't mind reading about them but they wouldn't be desirable sons-in-law!


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lunababymoonchild



Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 447


Location: Glasgow, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Castorboy wrote:
As a father of three girls I agree with your comments but artists of all types have always been allowed such social freedom. I don't mind reading about them but they wouldn't be desirable sons-in-law!


Exactly.

I feel that we cannot really apply the standards of social convention that we have now in the 21st century to the 18th century.  I am by no means excusing Burns behaviour in any way but in 1758 life was so different as to be pretty much unrecognisable to us now.

Anyway, here is a link for those who find the broad scots dialect of Burns day - in which he wrote -  'translated' into english : The Best of Robert Burns in English. Personally, I think it loses a great deal in translation but then I've been brought up listening to the original so am used to hearing the broad scots.

Luna



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