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Evie

Diction

Why on earth can Louise Redknapp not pronounce the letter T at the end of the word 'it'?  There are only two letters in the word - neither of them seem that hard to pronounce.  I have just seen that advert again, where she and Jamie are advertising Thomas Cook holidays, and the word 'it' figures prominently...surely someone could have told her how awful it sounds not to pronounce the T?

Sorry, sounding a bit ridiculous myself now, I know - it just makes me scream!

I do love good diction. Cool
Chibiabos83

The one that really gets me - another phrase members of the Redknapp family are likely to use - is Whi'e Har' Lane. I suppose it doesn't affect non-football fans, but it gets on my goat, as I once heard Alan Green say.
Mikeharvey

I absolutely agree. Mispronunciation is also rife.  I wish that broadcasters would get the pronunciation of homosexuality correct.  The first O is short as in 'box'.  
The missing T has always been a problem. I recall some lads playing cricket and the batsman missed the ball. A fellow player called out 'i 'i.
Which is 'Hit it' without h or t.
Evie

Yes, you have to feel sorry for the goat!

The Redknapps are all quite sweet really, but that advert does annoy me.  Even more than seeing them all playing Wii.  (Do you play Wii..or on the Wii...or with the Wii...or what?  I can't cope with technology because I don't know how to incorporate it into a normal sentence!!)
Chibiabos83

I neither Wii myself (let's make it a verb...or not) nor have seen the advert, but I can imagine your annoyance. What with the money I spend on books, CDs and DVDs - especially CDs, which is a vice I've had for fifteen years - it never seemed wise to get into gaming. I used to be adept at Super Mario Land 1 and 2 on my brother's Game Boy, but it's never gone further than that, apart from playing games on my mobile, which is something I can't seem to shake.
Evie

Mike, that's interesting about the word homosexual - I always thought the long O (as in 'home') was correct, since homo with a long O means same, homo with a short O (as in box) means man (the former word being Greek, the latter Latin).  'Homosexual' describes people of either gender who are attracted to people of the same sex, rather than just men attracted to men.

But I could, of course, be wrong!
Evie

You can't shake your mobile, Chib?  (I wrote 'can't shake your Wii' by mistake, but let's not go there...)

I used to enjoy playing tennis and bowls and horseracing on my nephews' Wii, but they sold it to buy a new Playstation.  I have never got into gaming either, though I love the solitaire type games on the computer and the MindJolt games on Facebook (Staries is my current favourite...so addictive).
Chibiabos83

There was a letter in the Radio Times a few months ago complaining that Ken Barlow, as an educated man, would naturally have said 'hommosexual', instead of which he was heard to say 'hohmosexual'. I got the impression it utterly ruined that episode of Coronation Street for the writer, who I assume to be a man with far too much time on his hands.
Evie

My Dad seems (from the way he tells it...repeatedly...) to give the assistants in Somerfield a hard time every time he goes in there, for having a sign that says '10 items or less'.  He gives them a lengthy explanation of why it's wrong.  I imagine they now see him coming and draw lots as to who will be on the checkout to serve him!

So hommosexual really is the correct pronunciation, not hohmosexual?  I was quite convinced by the argument about the different pronunciations of 'homo' meaning different things, but then I am quite gullible.   Sad
MikeAlx

Well having grown up in South London I'm afraid I probably use more glottal stops than consonants. Then again, I'm not an actor. Neither are the Redknapps, but I suppose that's celeb culture for you - even the adverts don't have proper actors!

As a teenager I remember my brother and I laughing (behind his back) at a friend's dad who was an actor (best known for voice-over work), and constantly criticised the diction and pronunciation of newsreaders and radio presenters - "Good God man, can't you speak English?".
Evie

I think it's just, with that advert, that the word 'it' is emphasised so many times, as it's the main point of the script, that it is just too irritating!  I don't mind the glottal stops in normal speech - I realise some people have to come from Essex.   Wink
MikeAlx

BBC rules have long insisted on "hommo". Can't be sure of the reasoning.

Personally I hate "shedule" (without voicing the "c") and controversy with the third rather than the second syllable stressed, but I have no idea in both cases which (if either) is more correct.
MikeAlx

Evie wrote:
I realise some people have to come from Essex.   Wink
Surrey, actually. Just not the posh part!  Laughing
Chibiabos83

With you on controversy, Mike, though I'm very much a shedule man. I'm under the impression that shedule is British English and skedule American English. I wonder what makes us form these prejudices for and against particular pronunciations. Upbringing, partially, I suspect.
Caro

I think schedule with a 'c' pronounced is more American.  I say conTROVersy mostly, but have a feeling the radio here uses the other, so perhaps that means it is considered more correct.  Contribution is always on the first and third syllables.  

What I don't like is the inability of young people to differentiate between 'ear' and 'air'.  It seems obvious to me, so I don't understand why it isn't to everyone.  But I recall a speech therapist talking about this years ago (so by young I think I mean anyone under 50!) and she said it was the same as people who can't hear the difference betwern Ellen and Allan or pronounce electricity as allictricity, both of which I do naturally.  Didn't even know there should be a difference between Ellen and Allan till she said.

Cheers, Caro.
Evie

I am a shedule too, and while I say controversy with the stress on the second syllable, I have seen people writing to the RT and elsewhere complainging that the correct pronunciation is with the stress on the third syllable, which does make some sense, given the etymology.  Sounds a bit strange, but it doesn't annoy me.
Evie

Caro, I expect it's that Ellen and Allen sound more similar with an NZ accent!  It's like hearing an American say Carrie and not knowing if it is really Kerry.
Apple

I personally can't see the problem, everyone speaks differently and I think its far better hearing variations than the plum in yer gob  English.  I love hearing different dialects and accents and ways of speaking it adds to the colour and character of the country.  So what if a few t's go missing and th turns into f in the big scheme of things  vair's more impor'an' fings ta worry abou'!!!  Smile
Evie

Oh, don't get me wrong, I love accents too, and different pronunciations - it's great.  I always think it's amazing that such a small country as the UK has so many different regional accents.  I just find that Thomas Cook advert annoying.
iwishiwas

I don't like skedule either, it just sounds wrong to me. Another thing which is particularly annoying, as spoken by my daughter and friends, is the use of like.
"She like went shopping like everyday."
Also the use of proper
"It was like proper expensive"
I'm sure this is an age thing or a cultural thing but I spend my days constantly correcting her but to no avail. I just hope she grows out of it.
Chibiabos83

I'm quite a fan of the democratisation of accents on TV and radio that's happened over the past few years. Preferable, I suspect, to the universal RP that presumably held sway sixty or seventy years ago, even if a few Terry Christians do slip through the net.

Does anyone have a favourite voice in broadcasting? Charlotte Green is often touted as the greatest, and I certainly wouldn't quibble with that, but I love Radio 4's Jamaican continuity announcer Neil Nunes. He has a curiously sexy voice, not unlike Don Warrington's. Kirsty Young's voice also does funny things to me. And all this before I've even mentioned Sue MacGregor...
Mikeharvey

I don't want to be controversial - but have Readers noticed the increased use of SAT in a sentence like 'She was SAT in the parlour' instead of 'She was SITTING in the parlour'.  And I was STOOD by myself,  instead of 'I was STANDING by myself.'  I think SAT and STOOD and similar tenses are a Northern usuage which is becoming more widespread.  Alan Bennett who's from Leeds always say 'WAS SAT'.  Perhaps he's to blame.  
Anyway usage changes.  In Victorian times we'd have said 'She don't look well to me'.  And 'It aint' was perfectly acceptable.
Evie

I like Paul Guinery's voice, on R3.  Sue's voice is wonderful, of course.
Evie

Mike - Terry Wogan used to share your frustration over the use of 'sat' on his breakfast show!  Even when his listeners wrote in, he was not afraid to have a go - 'you were not sat, you were sitting or seated!'
Ann

My unreasonable dislike is people, including both my daughters, who say they are good rather than well. When I say 'How are you?' and get the reply 'I'm good' I always want to say 'So I should hope!' I think it is an australianism but it could be american. Why do I mind? I know language is an evolving thing and it doesn't matter as long as we all know what we're talking about it but it grates. Mad
MikeAlx

I think there are grounds for argument on schedule. It entered English from French, where it would have been pronounced 'Sh', but its roots are in Latin and Greek. The Greek word skhida had a hard "c"; the Latin schida I suppose we don't know about, but in modern Italian a hard c would be pronounced (as in scherzo). The Latin word is related to schism, which I would certainly pronounce with a hard "c".
Green Jay

Mikeharvey wrote:
I don't want to be controversial - but have Readers noticed the increased use of SAT in a sentence like 'She was SAT in the parlour' instead of 'She was SITTING in the parlour'.  And I was STOOD by myself,  instead of 'I was STANDING by myself.'  I think SAT and STOOD and similar tenses are a Northern usuage which is becoming more widespread.  Alan Bennett who's from Leeds always say 'WAS SAT'.  Perhaps he's to blame.  



I've noticed this  increasingly, too. I'd always thought of it as regional variation, but not a very correct one - along the lines of "we was down the shops", instead of "we were". But I hear it increasingly now in the south-east where people didn't used to use it.

We should have called this thread Don't get me started...
Chibiabos83

Oh, that bothers me too, Ann! I do correct people on it, but only if I know them very very well.
Ann

Very Happy  Very wise, Chib
MikeAlx

Sat and stood in the way Mike mentions are Northern usages, and since I have northern roots I've grown up with them and don't mind them. I've even known people say "Stood up!" as a command. I also like "while" used to mean "until", which is common in Yorkshire.

The most annoying one for me is "lay" and "lie", which is a common mistake in the South East.
Green Jay

Evie wrote:
Mike, that's interesting about the word homosexual - I always thought the long O (as in 'home') was correct, since homo with a long O means same, homo with a short O (as in box) means man (the former word being Greek, the latter Latin).  'Homosexual' describes people of either gender who are attracted to people of the same sex, rather than just men attracted to men.

But I could, of course, be wrong!


I thought this was the reason too, but the other way round - I understood that the prefix that sounds like "homm" meant "same". So I was taught to pronounce homeopathy as homm-eopathy, as it is treating like with like.
Evie

Ah, that's where I am getting confused...sorry!  I always pronounced the Latin word as hommo, clearly incorrectly, which must be why I have misremembered which way round it was.
Chibiabos83

This is all most fascinating to one who missed out on the benefits of a Classical education but has picked up a little here and there Smile
Gino

It is easy to remember, think of homogenous (the same throughout) and homosapiens (thinking mankind)
VillageDuckpond

What a wonderful thread this is ....I have been sitting here chortling to myself....excellent!

By the way as we are talking about diction have you noticed how many people mispronounce the word pronunciation as 'pronounciation' instead of 'pronunciation' as in nun?

Sasha
Evie

Yes, that's annoying, isn't it?!

The other things that annoy me are when people say sunk or sung, instead of sank or sang - 'It sunk without trace' or 'He sung it beautifully' - both wrong, and really annoying!  I do feel I should get out more...
MikeAlx

My latest bugbear - "podcasted" as past tense of "podcast" (verb). The past tense of 'cast' is 'cast'. You wouldn't say "he casted the seeds". So why would you say "he podcasted his novel"?

Another one - for some reason, everyone at my work thinks if you shrinkwrap something, it has been "shrunkwrapped".  Mad
Evie

'Shrunkwrapped' is hilarious.

And yes, 'podcasted' is annoying!

It's a funny old language - great, though.
Chibiabos83

I much prefer 'podcasted' as the past tense - 'podcast' is still very new as a noun, I can't get used to it as a verb as well, at least not yet!
Evie

You sound more like Alan Bennett every day!  Don't rush it, have a cup of tea and do up another button on your cardi...   Wink
MikeAlx

Chibiabos83 wrote:
I much prefer 'podcasted' as the past tense - 'podcast' is still very new as a noun, I can't get used to it as a verb as well, at least not yet!

Have you broadcasted your concerns?  Wink
Chibiabos83

You two... I'm off for a cup of tea and a fondant fancy.
Evie

Ooh, save a pink one for me!   Cool
MikeAlx

Yellow or brown for me, I'm not fussy.

I once ate an entire packet of fondant fancies. I don't recommend it, unless you enjoy feeling slightly queasy.
Chibiabos83

That was me being Alan Bennett, by the way. I haven't had a fondant fancy for years, but all of a sudden I'm desperate for one and I haven't any in the house. A trip to Sainsbury's beckons.
Evie

You've only done that once???
bounce
(That's me on a sugar buzz, by the way!)
VillageDuckpond

Mike

What about what a farmer does.....broadcasting the seed in the field....I hope I am right about this! Does he then go home and tell his family that he has broadcasted the field?

Sasha
Evie

Yes, I knew it was you being AB!  But the desire for a pink fondant fancy prevented me from carrying on with the joke.  I like the yellow ones too, but Mike is welcome to the brown ones.
Chibiabos83

My own order of preference is pink, yellow, brown. I wonder what OED has to say on the subject of 'broadcast' - and 'podcast', for that matter. I'll check up and report back if I find anything exciting.
Chibiabos83

OED cites 'podcasted' as an adjective ("Most of them [sc. the students] preferred to..listen to podcasted lectures") but doesn't say anything about forming the past tense. 'Broadcasted' is used 'occas.' as a past participle. It's all part of the glorious variety of our tongue.
MikeAlx

The BBC seems to favour 'broadcast' - as in "the programme was originally broadcast in 2006".
Evie

Not even the OED will convince me that 'broadcasted' is ever a good idea.
Mikeharvey

I have heard people, who should know better, saying 'He was hung' instead of 'He was hanged'.

A grammatical misuse that always grates every time I hear it comes in 'My Fair Lady'. In Professor Higgins' 'Im an Ordinary Man' the lyric goes:
'Id be equally as willing for a dentist to be drilling THAN to ever let a woman in my life.'
Surely it should be 'AS to ever let a woman in my life.
Professor Higgins, a stickler for correct usage, would never have said (or sung) THAN.

And what about the very common use of 'would of' instead of 'would have'?  
'Would of' makes no sense whatever.
MikeAlx

Sure they were talking about the same thing Mike?  Wink
Mikeharvey

Damn.  I should AlWAYS check my postings for possible double meanings.  The trouble is I had an upbringing that a nun would envy.
That last line is a quotation - anyone spot it?
Evie

This board is hilarious today, with fondant fancies and German Shepherds being bilingual and Salinger in the missionary position, or something, and now this...thanks everyone for making me laugh!   Very Happy

Sorry, Mike, I don't know your quotation...  (Presumably 'would of' comes from mishearing, or misunderstanding, 'would've'.)
Mikeharvey

I have actually seen 'would of' in a printed book.  And it wasn't someone speaking.
'I had an upbringing that a nun would envy' is a line from Joe Orton's 'Entertaining Mr Sloane'.
Evie

Yes, it would be shocking to see 'would of' in print...  What I meant was that people hear 'would've' and automatically transcribe it as 'would of', without thinking.  But to get it past a proofreader is doubly shocking!

The other printed mistake I hate is when you see (all too frequently, and very often in books and journals that should know better) the word 'lead' for 'led' - 'he led the horse to water', not 'he lead the horse to water' - 'lead' is only pronounced like that when it refers to the meta!  Again, just lazy proofreading, I am sure.

Oh, I thought you meant the last line of your previous post was a quotation!  Sorry.  I did wonder how that could be a quotation!  I'm not very bright, especially today.
Gino

I know I used to use 'would of' but I am reformed now and never use it.
Ann

When marking I would generally have had to correct 'would of' in 90% of the children's work. Evil or Very Mad

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